(NWN3?) The Next Moddable cRPG Game/Toolset

[ladydesire]

While I agree with some of what you are saying Jah-din, I don't agree that the added Prestige Classes were all unnessary; Favored Soul maybe, but Spirit Shaman (Gann), NW9(what's his name that guards Lord Nasher), Shadow Thief of Amn (Morie, or however you spell it), and Red Wizard of Thay (Safayia) were all needed for NPCs in the main game or the expansionand it was a simple matter of one entry change in the classes.2da to make them available to players that might be interested in playing them.

[Anduraga]

I think NW9 was unneccessary Pointless class that only ever fits into that one particular region realistically. All the others can possibly venture out into other places.

And to some degree, I agree with Jah-din. MotB offered nothing in the ways of character creation. Only two new hairstyles and the genasi which I still think was a mistake. Took too long for not even very attractive looking characters. I daresay the Water Genasi are hideous

But I think worst of everything I've seen as far as character creation goes, dwarves win the award for the most pathetic. Dwarves take PRIDE in their beards. Its like a stunted teenager sporting a beard after two weeks of not shaving. Yes, it's that pathetic. Dwarves really do need a massive makeover. Their current setup is appalling.

As far as replayability goes. Its a combination of both. You won't ever catch me playing Oblivion again. Nice graphics, boring, repetitive and uninspiring.

[ladydesire]

Well, this all assumes that they have a large number of people working on art assets; it may or may not be the case.

[dunniteowl]

Okay, all that's fine and good, however, this is (NWN3?) The Next Moddable cRPG Game/Toolset, not a NWN2 review, folks. Let's not get sucked into what we don't like or do about NWN2, except as it relates to what we would do for the next iteration to 'fix' it. Fair?

Otherwise, this will descend into even more off-topic debate that, while interesting, would be better served in the NWN2 discussion threads.

@Jah-Din, yes, the character generation/creation process is really important to a lot of people. It's why I liken it to a 'game-within-a-game' as far as that goes.

I think, in terms of what we found useful or not in the NWN2 campaign, I think the real important aspect of that is how much of that were we allowed to use, change or modify without having to replace in-game OC assets in any way?

My other question is this: Is there anything else that we have not discussed in regard to character creation in this thread? I would like to hear all your thoughts on the issues and ideas that I have brought forward to character creation/generation. Are there things you think should be radically altered from what was presented? Are there things missing that you think should be added? Do you like the ideas or am I barking up the wrong tree, from a perspective of things you think you'd like to have access to in a game, be that from a player's or modder's perspective?

I do have one last aspect of the Character Creation Process to discuss, however. I have been waiting to get some sort of feedback on everything else so far presented before going further. As that hasn't really occurred, it is time, I feel, to press forward. If nothing else, I get to lay out my ideas on line and if others see them, perhaps someone out there will get around to assisting it to come to fruition.

The Character Background Option:

Shanus mentioned something earlier and I have to say that I agree with it so wholeheartedly, that I have to bring this up. It's the idea that the creation of your characeter ought to be done as the background of your character is created. With the caveat in mind that this was not intended for a Fantasy RPG system, I have such a system that I have developed for an RPG and I think it would make a worthwhile addition to creating characters in general.

I have a game, an SF-RPG that I am developing (since 1993) called Far Flung Empires and in it, there are many options to creating characters. As this was a skills based system which could create classes, it is somewhat the reverse of D&D, however, character creation is what we're talking here.

I initially designed the game to have starting characters as young as 12 or 13 years of age and up to characters in their 40's as starting characters. This was a SF game, and through many other things available, ultra young and relatively old characters seemed reasonable as a way to engross and immerse the players of characters of those age groups.

However, to do this, it seemed that a relatice scale of learning, education, skills, background and other sorts of life experience/wisdom would be involved. So I did a lot of reading on current maturation, psychology, cultures, and, well, you name it. Then I sat down and started designing a way to create a character as you went through it's aging process of growth, and depending on where the character was being raised, what race it was and other factors that would make them what they were. Now how was I going to make that happen?

I was designing for a board or table top experience, so I was reduced to physical devices to randomize. I created a set of cards that could be used for this process (or played as part of another game -- I was designing for multi-functional accessories at the time) as well as using a spinner with marked off sections for variables.

I was also remembering something of the way that characters were generated in MegaTraveller, the computer game. You started your character and you had a choice, go to school, join the military, hit the streets, that sort of thing.

So, to me, to replicate the experiences that might occur, I developed a series of options that were available to folks going down certain paths. I started the character creation process at age 8 and broke it down into 2 year blocks for each optional period up to the age of 18. It went something like this: *(bold faced items are the 'presumed' choice for sake of clarity.)

• Pick the Race you will Play?
  • Human
  • Skar *click `Shh (!)Pow
  • V'lar`ethi
  • Jhu Truk
  • Ooouieeouieeoou
  • Uru Trangor
• Pick the Planet of your Birth?
  • Earth
  • Luna
  • Mars
  • Alpha Centuari A
  • Wolf 351 Prime
  • Lanarellan III
  • Hope's Colony
  • Orbital Earth Colonies
• Pick the Path of Education You Will Take?
  • Formal Education
  • Home Education*
  • Trades and Vocations
  • Private School*
  • No Education

It would then proceed to inform you:
Since you were 10 years old, you were working on the farm with your parents, attempting to make the hard, unyielding soil of Lanarellan produce viable human edible crops. The last two years were hard, but you've learned a lot about making the land arable. Even though you didn't recieve any sort of formal education, your father and mother, both degreed scientists and engineers, taught you a lot while you were all busy making Lanarellan into something more closely resembling Earth in the days of the 1880s pioneering spirit.

Your Strength has improved by +1
Your Intelligence has improved by +1
Your Endurance has improved by +2

Farming Skill has been granted at +6
Vehicle Repair Skill (Farm Equip) has been granted at +3
Agronomy Skill has been granted at +3
Tracking Skill has been granted at +2
Healing Skill has been granted at +1

Then, you start the process over again at the point where you choose your Education. It will do this in 2 year blocks until you reach 18. By this time, you have a pretty detailed background, sorted somewhat by the choices you make and the randomization of the story each section will bring. Each section will be relevant to the race, the planet, the technology and culture available as well as the opportunity to change tracks. I will detail this further if greater interest is shown via feedback. It is really quite involved, though as a computer gamed device, most of this will be wholly transparent to the players. They would choose the path courses and then, through a series of randomized results, stored in a database, their background unfolds in two year increments, changing as they select other options that become available, pending their path, age, planetary options, etc.

In a D&D game, this could be altered (and would have to be) to fit the scenario of the milieu. The choices could come from parental influences, city, culture, rural background, country lived in, race, etc. and it could do it in the same general way as what I have described above.

Moreover, as a default, it should be comprehensive. However, it should also be allowed to be added to, modified or scrapped altogether by modders for whatever purposes. Also, if a player just wants to create a quick character and skip all that, they should be allowed the option to do so.

more later,
dunniteowl

[Anduraga]

Not sure how saying what we like/dislike about NWN2 remains off-topic. If we say what do/don't like, then its a given that we either keep it the same or change it completely for the next gen game.

And sorry if I hijack the thread a little from ya dunnite. The player-controlled instances relates to character development for the most part with touches of post-character creation stuff added in.

In response to dunniteowl's massive post, the only thing that currently comes to mind is Background Trait feats in NWN2. It sounds similiar to what you described there, but there aren't as many mechanics to choose from as there is in DnD. What I think I'm getting from what you're saying is the background traits determine the norm standpoint of the model (farmers would be moderately built to start with, etc).

If you wanted to go that route, I think using a class/race combo would be a good starting point for that.

Player Controlled Instances

And to your previous question about character generation, the system you presented to me sounds like a mild version of what Oblivion had and the aging system Fable had. The nice thing about those two games is the customizability.

In Oblivion you change the hair length, wide cheeks, shallow cheeks, long nose, pudgy nose, flat nose, fat lips, skinny lips, and the list goes on and on. What Oblivion didnt let you choose was age specific stuff I believe. Its mostly about vector manipulation similiar to the height and girth settings already in as I see it. The difficulties between height/girth and some of the other features is obvious. Height and girth effect the entire model. This is a fairly simple and basic part of the manipulation. The others, eh, not so much as they deal with parts of the body. But if Obsidian can do that, then they can discard the need to make new faces all-together. It would be enitrely unneccessary. Unfortunately, hair can't work that way.

Speaking of hair, ever since I've played Fable, I have always to see two systems that they had. Tattoos and haircuts applied after character generation. I don't really see what would be so difficult about haircuts, but the tattoos could prove a challenge to some degree. However, I doubt tattoos would ever come since god forbid we show any skin whatsoever. Women in skimpy clothing and men without shirts on does not immediately merit M for mature. I have seen far worse. Just look at the Vault for christ's sake. Something similiar to what NWN1 did would be great, except allow characters to choose a color theme, which just sparked another character generation idea. That was one of my personal peeves with NWN2, which I hope they don't flip out with their next gen game.

The color themes as I envision it, is similiar to what BG2 had. Whenever you strip down naked, whatever cloth there is will colored based on whatever your color scheme was. BG2 only had two themes, NWN2 has 3 techinically, but doesn't utilize it very well. Similiar to the portrait switching, it would be nice to be able to modify this as well.

Modder Controlled Instances

Basically what I'm coming down to, is allow for more events for modders to tap into. If this is done, you will find that alot more doors will open. The less hard-coded a program is, the more open it is for modifications to an exponential level. You do have to watch how far you do go with that however. If NWN was designed like Oblivion or Witcher, then you're playerbase will shrink. The need for modellers would shoot up, and relying on them to support your playerbase is a bad plan. Those games are based off heightmaps/prefabbed areas. Little in the ways of customization.

For instance in NWN2, you cannot change your hairstyles in the middle of gameplay. Why? There is no event tapped into it for modders. Simply providing us the event and we can finish the rest, however, knowing Obsidian they would definantly get greedy and take all the credit by finishing the rest Allow us modders to tap into armor customization, the whole character generization part would have to be redone from scratch as the current system definantly is not very customizable.

By doing this, you can focus your art assets on either parts of the game, without the common player noticing not much modelling was done for character creation since players can customize it already.

NWScript: Arrays for scripting would also be nice. Quite a few times when one of those were needed. Too much of a pain to make one from scratch and it works half as efficient as the real thing.

Graphics: This is one of those double-edged swords to be honest. Players love graphics and modders dread it. Its already an issue with the current community. Quality areas are hard to come by and your average modder is challenged already with NWN2. There are a few high res textures on the vault for NWN2. If you've ever messed with them you'll know that blending is a very difficult task with higher quality. For interiors, this is great. High-res is better which leads me to question why the texturing for interior tiles is 10x worse than the exteriors, but nevermind that.

Editor: One of the major drawbacks of NWN2 modding is probably the editor itself. It takes a long time to get used to and good results are hard to come by if you don't know what you're doing. If the z-axis is ever incorperated, while it adds an infinite amount of new possibilities, I'll just give you a fair warning of how complex that editor is going to be. The editor would have to support new controls for building multi-layered walkmeshes. There will have to some way of calculating where you can and cannot swim and fly. Collisions obviously, but whats to stop a person from swimming from in the water and into the air? All these have to be considered.

Sounds: Lastly I wanted to hit on this. Not to get side-tracked with dissing NWN2 again, but to be honest, I'm not entirely sure how this should be handled. However, this sound system has been the same since NWN1, and lemme tell ya. It sucks. And if I'm not mistaken, the solution to this is the solution to the lighting issues. NWN2 lacks a Physics engine. Add one and your sound, lights and possibly even collision issues would be solved. In fact for anything dealing with the z-axis requires Physics and yes, dirtywick, sometimes Calculus. Mostly trig though.

[dunniteowl]

Good response, Anduraga.

My hint about being off-topic was that we need not bandy back and forth how they did it except as an example to lead in how we would like to see it differently... a discussion on the merits or lack thereof of PrCs is wholly irrelevant to this kind of discussion in terms of 'zots' or any other aspect unless we are talking about specifics of races, classes and PrCs we'd like to see included.

As to the rest, well, of course we have to have something as a comparison, though NWN/2 need not be the end-all be-all for those comparisons. I just don't wish this particular topic to get mired in debate of features in a game already extant, as opposed to discussing the features we'd like to see in the next iteration.

As to that, it is important to note that there is no discussion, to the best of my knowledge by any developer, IP holder or Publisher regarding something like NWN3 and for that I am actually happy.

Right now, before that discussion occurs, officially, we have an opportunity to detail, analyze and point out things we'd like to have before someone ever begins to roll up their sleeves and tell us what they think we'll like.

I say strike while the iron is hot in this regard.

Now, onwards...

I quote myself to highlight my agreement with Anduraga about this aspect of the game:

Physics: Engine

What this engine must be able to do is to model flight physics of creatures, both mundane and magical. Also the physics of falling. The engine must be able to calculate damge from falls from varying heights. The engine must be able to factor in such things as magical damage reductions, skills, talents or abilities that mitigate such damage as well as possible uses of spells or skills to prevent the continuation of a fall.

Additionally, the engine must be able to take weapon length, strength of the wielder, weapon speed, armor class opposing and relative chance to hit into account for combat. Clearly the effect of missiles, percent chance to hit, physical damage to apply, etc. all must be able to be factored in this as well.

Forces of nature that affect movement, vision, flight of weapons, hearing, etc. have to be factored in. Also, any and all racial adjustments, class adjustments, skills modifiers, etc. as well as opposed skills, etc. have to be simply calculated, based on the stats of all factors available, known and quantified already in the database system that holds all the relevant data structures for all items, weapons, armors, creatures, NPCs and PCs created.

The angle of a hill as well as amount of water flowing, depth and width of a stream or river could be a calculable event in that, a person attempting to cross would have a perecentage chance of slipping and falling, or even of being swept downstream (with applicable animations for same) and could, conceiveably go over a waterfall or through whitewater rapids -- and the engine, due to the factors being quantified, would be able to figure out how far the person was swept away, or if they drown or are battered by the stream/waters or the fall.

These are the kinds of things that must be factored into the physics engine. With this sort of physics engine being used, a separate Combat Engine might be superfluous, though using a Combat Engine Calculator in conjunction with a physics engine in a multi-threaded, possibly multi-processor system might make things go much more smoothly. Additionally, the physics engine, in conjunction with the graphics engine, will determine, in large part, how fluid a gaming experience can be had.

I refer to highlighted points as showing where Anduraga is on the mark and the amount of change that would be inherent in a next iteration of NWN (or whatever it might be called.)

I agree that we must be ready for a more powerful and by consequence, a more arcane (to many if not most) set of tools by which we will build. I do believe, however, that the toolset need not be a monster to vanquish. I think that, if we can tie into the physics engine as it relates to the objects being used to model the terrain, NPCs, walkmeshes, etc, then the appearance of the game in the toolset will come with markers and devices that, through the use of the data subsets of all the parts, should calculate for the module maker most of the transitional data (ie: calculating walkmesh one, two, three, four, etc.) within the module itself as it's being built.

Doing something by first creating and playing with a Physics Engine and testing it to see where it bends and breaks, to me, would be the primary aspect of building not only the game, it would be a central component to whatever developer does this to creating the game in the first place with the toolset they create from this process.

As one of my signatures indicate in the NWN2 forums: "After all, when all the programming is done, the OC is another module made from the toolset."

What I mean by this is that, when creating the game and it's toolset for the developers that do it, the more flexibility and power to do whatever that they can insert, the better for them and their player base. Being the first users of the toolset (as well as the coders of this toolset) they will have an inherent advantage to using it. This bodes well for expansions, modifications and upgrades to the game and it's assets along the way.

I also agree that the hardcoding of the system ought to be limited to how the physics engine inter-relates in the toolset and in-game. The calculations of the physics, it's way of calculating all possible collisions, their effects and the many varied possible outcomes can all remain safely inside the engine without anyone having to peek under the hood as long as the variables the physics engine uses are not hard coded.

Instead, make them aspects of the objects the physics engine has to deal with. In other words, the asset of an NPC would be that the variables stored in the NPC (stats, like Race, Class, STR, INT, DEX, etc) would all be variables the module builder has access to and can change. This data, available at the module maker's behest, then, allows for near infinite variety of that data. And still the physics engine would store the formulae that make all that data useful.

This would alleviate the grind and wear many folks out there experience in the methods of attempting to get things in that the current iterations of cRPGs don't allow as they hard code that data.

IN this manner, it would open up the Scripting engine to be accessible to all that can script, program or learn it. As long as the formulae and structures are there to be used, then they will be used. It doesn't matter if the vast majority of players out there ever have the inkling or desire to get into modding. Whatever the developers of the toolset create to assist them in making the game more powerful, robust, flexible and creative, the better for them. They don't have to sit down and ask, "What do modders want in the toolset?" They know already the many things we as modders have asked for and much of that they wish to have as well. Let them make the toolset for themselves and then turn a practiced eye on how to make wizards, templates and helpers in the toolset to automate their repetitive tasks, to make movement, placement, scaling, rotations and transfers easy for them. Let them make conversation editors, script handlers and helpers that make their job easier. If these things can be done while in development of the game, then their job ultimately, becomes a whole lot easier to build the actual game.

It is the toolset that really is the seat of control for building. Let that toolset be as powerful and as flexible as possible and many more folks will build. Sure, things might be tricky at first. We'll get over it eventually. With the focus on core physics engine, graphics engine and toolset power, the rest should fall into place.

Without us, before this ever gets started, giving voice to it, we may not see the things we'd like to see except as thoughtful add-ins by the devs later in the development phase. That's why we don't have rideable horses, can't swim, can't jump, fly, have over/under walkmeshes, etc.

I grant, they are not the only reasons, they are, however, due in large part to not factoring in how to do these things first before developing the toolset. We have, in this discussion, the opportunity to give it real and deep consideration prior to any announcement, thus providing greater focus on those things we, as potential module makers of the next iteration, find to be an essential part of the experience.

And that is why I brought it up in the first place. Any and all thoughts are welcome in this matter. I really am interested in seeing what folks would like to have available to do.

This is Blue Sky Stuff, people. We're not talking things you think they might have in the game, we're talking things you'd like to have and let's take it from there.

my best regards,
dunniteowl

[ladydesire]

I agree that we need more access to the underpinnings of the game, if for no other reason than to properly implement things that the developer chooses not to touch; I'd love to be able to do spellcasting base classes that aren't strictly tied to the existing ones, but I haven't found a way to do that in NWN2, yet. It has come so far from what NWN1 was with respect to player-added classes and races (in NWN1 you had to create the character in an external tool if it didn't use one of Bioware's included races or classes), but there is still a long way to go. Another thing that would be nice is to be able to substitute whatever ruleset you wanted to use, if for some reason you didn't like the one that comes with the game (I'm not too keen on D&D 4E quite yet so having the option to use the 3.5E rules would be sweet).

[Jah-din]

Also, I'd really like to see a return to full party combat with permanent death, and an isometric camera angle like the infinity engine games. And when I say 'full' party I mean that the game should be balanced for 6 PCs. I understand that Dragon Age is going to attempt something like this, but I'm not a huge fan of the setting, and I believe its only going to be 4 PCs to a party.

The first person shooter style RPG just isn't as entertaining or as tactically challenging. All the recently released titles are based around the small party of 1-4 players, where you just cycle a new PC into the 'first person' slot and the AI takes care of the rest of party. The combat has a totally different feel than the old turn based set ups where you could pause, think, and then issue commands.

[ladydesire]

That would be nice, but a lot of players today aren't used to doing that; they like the "mindlessnes" of the AI controlled party, except when it does something rather hairbrained like attacking allies.

[dunniteowl]

You know, once again, ladydesire, I will posit that you have sort of hit the nail on the head -- as far as perceptions go in terms of who is deciding what the demographic of players is. And this is one of the problems we face as intelligent players with the ability to logic things through, solve relatively difficult challenges and stay focussed on a situation for sometimes many days at a time. How do we compete for the ears and minds of developers?

I offer that this thread, ultimately, in it's entirety, is part of that answer. This is why I don't wish to focus on those aspects of the game that make things worse for us as gamers. Yeah, we see a lot of the lowest common denominator = much more revenue for Company X, so let's cater to the masses and dumb it down.

Those companies have people in them that like to make games. I am sure that many of them feel as we do, yet are told that the kinds of games they want to make, don't sell, so make it this way instead. Please, consider me the Jerry Maguire of game development if you will. More personal commitment and less sales speak.

To this end, let's discuss the whole concept of the D&D playing aspect of original intent: A party of 4-6 adventurers in a turn based, initiative controlled gaming system, who's primary purpose is to have a challenging and amazingly rich interactive story where the party adventurers get to be the heroes (or not in some cases.)

What's so bad about not being Real Time? Doesn't anyone still play checkers, chess, RISK, Monopoly, Clue, Boggle and the myriad other games out there that, including card games for the most part, are turn based? Is there a reason that we have to sell sell sell the concept of rich mouse controlled interactive twitch fests that purport to call themselves RPGs when they are really RTS's or Action-Based First Person Shooters?

I am not saying there is any thing wrong with any of these types of games. They just aren't D&D no matter how much paint, plaster, name branding or hype you wish to apply to them. They just aren't. They could do all the things that have been done and call them D&D Based games and I think we all would understand and realisitically deal with it.

It's like calling MechCommander and MechWarrior related games, but not the same game system. They both take place in the MechWarrior Universe, they use the same equipment, mechs, planets, symbology, overall game terms, but they are not the same as the board game or table top MechWarrior, they are MW Based games for the computer platform. As importantly, they are not the same game between each other. Same holds true for games set in the Star Wars Universe, the Star Trek Universe or any others that you could care to name.

So what would be so bad about going back to a more Gold Box or Eye of the Beholder type of party, even if the single player controlled all of them in a turn based environment? Do you think, that after all these years of non-use of these forms of play, that they cannot be revived or that they would not once again catch the imaginations and fires of players of D&D based games?

How badly implemented was Temple of Elemental Evil? Bug ridden, unplayable to completion by all in it's initial release, fraught with all manner of technical issues and, ultimately, the company went under from the mismanagement of Atari. Yet, many folks out there hail it as one of the most accurate and faithful attempts at recreating the party sized, turn based adventure from PnP to the computer. What might have happened had the game been allowed to be properly completed, tested and modified instead of being rushed out the door?

For that matter, what a different RPG world might we live in today if the old Gold Box SSI games had been allowed to be upgraded with better graphics, more sophisticated rules and mechanics, customisable interfaces and then packaged with a better implementation of a toolset a la Unlimited Adventures: Campaigns in the Forgotten Realms (1990)? Of course, all that is water under the bridge at this point and we can only speculate.

That's what this whole thread is about. Speculation. We are talking about the things we'd really like to see in the next iteration of the Toolset enabled D&D Franchise cRPG game.

So why couldn't the developers offer two modes of play? Turn based (with timers perhaps, if you take too long to decide what to do, the initiative is given up to the next player in line) for MP/SP or, a more semi-realtime mode where the interactive party AI and a pause button (for non MP play) can be used to slow things down when it gets hectic?

Or is it possible to offer more than that for playing? Could there not be a possibility that a simple selector would implement full turn based play, waiting until hell freezes over to the next player's turn (and this would have to be for SP -- I think in MP there would have to be a timer that ultimately moves a non active player out to last place in the initiative line so that play isn't halted indefinitely,) another selection and you skip to turn based play with a timer, then a third selection places you in semi-realtime with a pause button and lastly the 4th selection gives you the ultimate PvP environment where the faster you are, the badder you are (pending your class, level and experience overall) which would probably suit many of the MMO related PWs.

Each game module could be developed to be played within a range of styles (and some would fare better in some modes than others) all using the same toolset, rules (with some modifications possibly) and graphics engine. Wouldn't this be the best of all possible worlds? Couldn't this be done and still be something the people in the Instant Gratification Masses be happy with while still pleasing the deeper players in any of the playing categories?

I think so.

So, I ask of you this: Put out there what would please you, not what you think the developers or publishers think you're supposed to have. Don't worry about what others wish to have, regardless of whether it's instant gratification, min-maxing munchkinism or monty haul kill monster fests. What would you like to see in a game like this? Tell me, tell us all, what is it you wish to have? Let's see if we can make it fly conceptually and then we can start to sanity check it. Let's not worry about the perversion it might be turned into in the hands of a publisher or developer who will listen to marketing idiots before they trust their instincts.

Until next post,
my very best regards,
dunniteowl